It's an Inside Job

Rethinking Technology, Generational Tensions, and Hiring: How Shifting Mindsets Transforms Any Workplace into a Space for Growth and Well-Being

Jason Birkevold Liem

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“Generational clashes at work aren’t just inevitable—they’re opportunities to learn new ways of thinking.” - Nick Sheirff

In this episode of It’s an Inside Job, I sit down with workplace strategist Nick Sheriff to explore how we can bring together technology, empathy, and generational diversity to create workplaces that are both efficient and deeply human. You’ll hear practical strategies to adapt to rapid tech change, build inclusive cultures, and support well-being at work.

What if the real secret to thriving in the age of technology isn’t more tools, but more empathy?

Key Takeaway Insights and Tools

  • Technology is only a tool—creativity makes it valuable.
    Nick explains that the biggest barrier isn’t tech itself but the lack of creative training in how to use it. (00:05:00)
  • Early adopters show how small tech habits save time and reduce stress.
    We talked about examples like AI transcription and automated meeting summaries that free people to listen fully instead of multitasking. (00:09:18)
  • Generational diversity is both a challenge and an opportunity.
    Nick shares how boomers, Gen X, millennials, and Gen Z bring different values and work habits—and how technology can bridge these divides when used thoughtfully. (00:13:18)
  • Inclusion works best when it’s genuine, not tokenistic.
    We dug into why organizations thrive when roles are filled based on merit, passion, and values rather than demographics. (00:24:29)
  • Workplace well-being requires reflection spaces and cultural shifts.
    Nick described how quiet rooms, walk-and-talks, and leadership-led breaks can transform burnout into breakthrough. (00:39:34)

Nick Sheriff is a workplace strategist and the founder of Media Monday Oslo, a platform he first developed in Dubai during the financial crisis to reframe challenges as opportunities. Nick now helps organisations harness technology, bridge generational divides, and foster inclusive workplace cultures. 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nick-sheriff/
Website: https://www.disrupt.no/

If this conversation sparked some ideas for you, share the episode with a colleague and hit subscribe to It’s an Inside Job. That way you won’t miss future episodes where we explore the tools and stories that help us build resilience, lead with intent, and strengthen well-being.

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This is It's an Inside Job, and I'm your host, Jason Lim. This is the show where we explore the stories, strategies, and science behind growing resilience, nurturing well-being, and leading with intent. Because when it comes down to it, it's all an inside job. Welcome to the top of a new week. A couple of questions for you. Have you ever felt like the tools designed to make work easier sometimes end up making it more complicated? Or wonder why despite rapid advances in technology, many organizations. Teams, and even individuals, while we still struggle to adapt creatively? Well, today I'm joined by Nick Sharif. He's a workplace strategist who helps organizations harness technology, navigate generational diversity, and build inclusive cultures. And with experience across corporate sectors in Europe, well, Nick brings sharp insights into how businesses can balance efficiency with humanity. So in today's conversation, we explore a number of areas. For example, how leaders can encourage creativity and training so technology becomes an enabler and not a barrier. We also discuss why generational differences in the workplace can be both a challenge and an opportunity. Followed by practical ways to design environments that support empathy, inclusion, and well-being. And at the very end of our conversations, I'll share one insight from our discussion that completely reframes how we think about workplace culture in the age of technology. Something simple yet impactful that can shift how you lead and show up every day. So without further ado, let's slip into the stream and meet Nick Sharif. I'd like to welcome everyone back to It's an Inside Job. Nick, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you very much, Jason. Could we kick off by you introducing who you are and what you do? Right, so I have a set of events which we've been doing since 2017. They're called Media Monday Oslo. A concept originally designed and developed in Dubai during the financial crisis. So it was a concept designed to find answers during a time of crisis and get creative, sort of switch things upside down and a rather sort of unorthodox approach where you look at a problem not necessarily as a problem but as an opportunity. So there are so many reasons behind starting Media Monday. Number one was that I myself as a qualified professional coming from a foreign country, struggled to get work, not even getting interview. And so it was to basically find employment for myself. And then after being successful, get other people who are having the same struggles to get them into the working life here in Norway at their level that they desire instead of just washing cantinas and working in warehouses and so on and so forth. So that's where Media Monday started, but then it evolved on its own as a technology event where it brings people, most unlikely people from different arenas, but talking about topics which they see eye to eye. For example, you could look at a CEO who's a baby boomer who will meet with a Gen Z or millennial and talk about how to adapt AI into his traditional business. And so these are two people who not necessarily would meet face to face, but we are unique in our ability to create those meeting points. Thank you for that, Nick. In today's contemporary workspace, you know, we're a lot of people work in sort of an open, open landscape. And then on top of that, we have a very complex world right now with AI, machine learning and everything else. And the technological revolutions are coming so fast that we adopt it per se, but we're kind of sleepwalking into it. Society and organizations haven't kept up and it's hard to keep up with such technological shifts. From your perspective, to start rather general, what do you think? You speak a lot about a holistic approach to the workplace. Perhaps we could sort of operationally define that and explore that together. Well, for me, it's very simple. I mean, all the technology that we see around is a tool. So we men, we tend to, for example, fall in love with our vehicles, our cars or bikes or so on. So we treat them like a human being. We talk to them and all that. Whereas women have a tendency of looking at them just like a tool to get that from A to B. And so I think when you look at all the technology around us, it's a tool. And I personally felt, and this is one of the messages of Media Monday, is that what we lack is not the technology. What we lack is the creativity of using this technology in a creative way. And of course, you know, those of us who have pushed the envelope, so to speak, have come pretty far where we use the internet to teach us teach ourselves as well as you know do other interesting things like this podcast and so on and so forth uh whereas there is a lot of quite a few people who cannot who find adapting to technology difficult simply because they do not, this is what I feel they do not necessarily. Have the skill set to solve the challenges that they have by using the technology that they have at hand, And a simple example is if you look at Tesla, one of the leading tech companies, and if you look at the technology that they're using, it's pretty rudimentary. It's from the 1800s, which was developed by Nikola Tesla. And there is no magic in that. It's just reimagining tech in such a way. And so I feel today workplaces are limited because we're talking about workplace, are limited with people who are not successfully able to utilize technology for their advantage. And on top of that, we have management who have very strict management structures that a certain thing has to be done in a certain way. So the workload is increasing because competition is going through the roof because today, for example, German car manufacturers are not the leading car manufacturers anymore. There are new players in town. And obviously because of that, the prices are going down. So a company has to serve more within a short period. But at the same time, they are limited by still using very traditional working methodologies, using papers and files and pens and so on and so forth. And so it's and we talk about replacing or utilizing technology. It could be something as simple as the transcription that you're using right now to transcribe what I'm talking about. Right. So there was this meeting that I had with one of the meeting from the medical department. Technology companies, and their great breakthrough solution was that they actually, instead of the doctor typing down everything when they speak to the patient, the conversation is recorded and transcribed, and then the information from the transcript is captured and logged on to the database so that the doctor can actually, instead of being a data input person. You know, like back in the day is just tapping on his keyboard and being disconnected from the patient can actually be engaged in the patient because that's what the patient wants. It wants the human engagement while the machine in the background is capturing the conversation and putting in all the important points and preferably also suggesting the necessary medication or treatments and so on. So the technology is way beyond what we actually need today. But the ability to creatively think and put this three, four, five tech together and make it happen in a sequential and, of course, in a secure way, that's what we feel we are lacking right now. It's quite interesting because I concur with you from my limited experience, but I work with a number of corporations and organizations themselves are not always adept at adopting technologies quite early to benefit. But what I do see is that there are individuals, early adopters, if we can call them that, who do that. And so they'll be sitting in a meeting and they will have their iPhone in the background recording the meeting. And then immediately after that, they just take the transcript, throw it into an AI, a generative AI, ask them what are the salient points, and it generates it for them. And then they can create a response. what might have taken a long time just to go through notes and such. They don't even have to take notes because as you said, like the doctor example, they are present. They can listen. They can understand. They can hear different viewpoints. 100% not sort of partial attention because they're moving from taking notes to listening. And so you can see this sort of piecemeal where early adopters are using the technology for themselves, transcription, AI. And I think it comes back to comes a little full circle to what we were talking about at the beginning. Is that it does create a sense of, it takes down the stress. They don't have to use so much time, so much energy to take what was the captured points there because they have it all. And depending upon the AI, they can ask it different prompts to take that information and to tailor it to whatever employee or leader of another department they need to so it fits with their needs. Without a doubt. and today we are seeing more people using this tech but the adaptation is pretty slow and the adaptation is pretty slow I feel because we lack creative ways of allowing people to adapt for example gamification everyone talks about gamification but if you speak to people, any HR manager and ask, okay, how do you take notes? I mean, do you even know what gamification is, right? How to get people used to their smartphones as a tool. Than just making phone calls or watching cat videos on YouTube, but to actually utilize this in capturing conversations and then transcribing it. And then exactly what you've mentioned, do you have a gamification plan on how your senior to mid-management or everyone across the board can utilize this type of things? One of the ways I look at technology is, yes, today you see everyone who loves, you know, literally their syndromes because of people looking at their smartphones, you know, backaches and, you know, upper back problems and so on and so forth. So without a doubt, people love their smartphone. They're addicted to it. But why not use something that you're addicted to actually make your life better and make your work life better than actually, yeah, just being a dopamine hit every now and then, right? So this is what, and I feel to achieve that, to approach that, But there has to be a certain, I feel like there has to be some steps taken by people in HR or senior management to actually show how they could save, shave off minutes or hours from their daily just by using these tools. And so from your experience talking to different HR organizations within companies and such, what have you found have been sort of the primary or the most pertinent questions that they're asking right now? I think the latest is something that's a growing issue because there is a lot of positivity around inclusion. But the focus when it comes to inclusion has been more towards including different nationalities and different races and so on, but not necessarily different ages. So if you look at a baby boomer in his 60s and Gen X was probably in their 50s and working with millennials, especially Gen Z, there are different value sets that are clashing here, different values, different work ethics. I was speaking to two gentlemen who were hired into a company that was completely founded by Gen Zs and millennials, and they themselves are, that's their major challenge. The organization is doing extremely well. It's in the financial service sector. but just the culture, cultural clash. So this is a key thing that we are seeing that is creating unnecessary. If it's a necessary challenge within HR, it's understandable. This is creating unnecessary challenges, problems that should not even be there to start with. What do you mean by that? Because, I mean, generations will come with their own set of values, with their own backgrounds and what have you. And so anytime you bring two distinct groups together, but because of perspectives, there's always going to be a clash of opinions and values and ways of doing things. Wouldn't these be natural challenges that would come up in any organizations, whether it's boomers or zoomers or exes and millennials? I think so. I believe it's definitely without a doubt. I mean, that's the beauty of human, you know, humanity, right? We are different nationalities, different cultures, different ways of bringing, different education, different psychologies and so on and so forth. So it's where, as if you, for example, come from a country, if you had worked, I worked and lived in Dubai and their diversity is welcome, right? They have a culture. It's based purely on diversity. They don't talk about it because there's 20 percent of nationals there. And 80% of the population in the GCC in the UAE are foreigners, people like yourself and myself, you and me, from different countries working together. And that... That itself is the norm. So it's normal. And then into that, there is everything that's included. You can see people well into their 60s still working in senior position together with young people. So it comes from, there's a different approach. I think it's basically sort of ingrained in the people where you're going to work with a lot of foreign people. you'll more or less never see someone of your own nationality, and so on and so forth. And I feel if you're looking at somewhere like Norway. As a very secluded country, which is at the age of the world more or less, there is this tendency of, even if you're an ethnic Norwegian, there's a tendency of, yeah, you're from North Norway, you're from Stavanger, or so on. So there's these differences in the way of people approaching work, and then you see that going further down into different age gaps and generational gaps and so on and so forth. So I wouldn't say that there is like a pill to sort this out, but I would say just as we started with the pride moment of accepting people of different whatever interest orientations that they have, I feel like we're at a time where we could openly talk about this. And I think this is where we could get started on this journey of accepting different generations and how they work and look at it from a positive perspective rather than a negative perspective. No, it's interesting. It's like when you see someone who wants to buy something, they will look at, you know, like if it's a Gen X or like, say, a boomer. Or they will go and do some research. But like a Zoomer, for example, like my kids, what they will do, they will read all the comments other people made. That's how they make comments. Judgments on certain things where I wouldn't have actually thought too much about that. And I do that sometimes when I'm buying a book on Amazon or something, right? But when it comes to other things, I don't generally read a lot of the comments. I just kind of read a general review on something. But there are differences. So to create a more agreeable work environment where you have different generations, how can we do this to create, to invite more people to the table, irregardless of generation, to share their opinions and their ideas. What we are seeing is, if you look at companies which are ahead of the curve, like the big corporations, global multinationals, they are creating a very tech-first approach towards getting people to communicate with each other, to creating more digital spaces where people, even despite their age gap, they get to hang around in the same sort of digital groups, so as to speak, and so on. So we're seeing, and they're becoming more interactive, so you're not necessarily seeing just like Reddit, just text-based interaction, but more physical interaction that's happening. But these are right now only with the top multinationals which are testing all this out because they have the budgets to do it and so on but then you know 80% of businesses are SMEs so the question is how do this trickle down to the, SMEs and all the other small businesses that actually needs to create this inclusive working environment instead of creating animosity towards the younger or the older generation but include them and understand their point of view. But what have you seen here in Norway, working with it, that has been applied, where you don't need lots of money per se, but maybe more creativity of how to use the technology to create this more inclusive, regardless of its gender or age or what have you? What have you seen that has worked? What I've seen here practically is that if you look at, for example, I mean, I work with the legal industry, so you get very senior lawyers at the same time, you get junior lawyers. And then, of course, there's a hierarchical, it's a very hierarchical industry. But now because of all the new regulations which are coming online, especially related to things which they never had to deal with, like sustainability and inclusion, so on and so forth. So today we are seeing the younger generation of lawyers and legal assistants and so on and so forth, given the opportunity to lead these type of new initiatives. Whereas the traditional lawyers, the senior lawyers, the senior partners are following them. So they have taken the initiative of allowing these young people to step into these roles. And also looking at one of the top, one of the big five consulting companies, they actually hired Arab Bill, who's obviously not ethnic Norwegian, not even born in Norway, but an engineer to be and a young person to be and of course wearing a hijab as well on top of that to be the sustainability consultant flying into offshore platforms and you know basically doing all the work related to what a sustainability consultant does in the oil and gas industry And then she's so so they switch the role the other way around so that she's now leading and people on the ground are senior people are learning from her and following early. So so they're they're really so these are, as I mentioned, large corporations, they're multi-billion dollar organizations, so they can do this thing. So they're really switching roles the other way around and they're leading in one way, they're being a bit vulnerable. So they're leading with vulnerability and they're putting people they have never put on in a position and they're seeing amazing results based on that. So I think the core takeaway from what I saw from these things is that it's the vulnerability is the ability to trust your younger generation. With their ability to use tech, understand, communicate, and build relationships and their approach, and switching the tables the other way around instead of a big 60-year-old CEO or divisional leader saying, you listen to me, I've been doing this for 30 years, I know what to do. Instead, you go do it, you figure out, and let us know what you learn and so on. So this is, I feel, one of the most, one of the top examples that I can come up with of how they're approaching this yeah i guess there's also the flip side of the coin where maybe it's gone too far to one side of the spectrum you see a lot of this in mainly anglo-saxon countries new zealand canada the states england australia and such where sort of this this inclusion or dei or die is gone it's swung so far that people are hiring based more on a certain ethnic group or a certain gender or what have you instead of merit right what they've earned knowledge competency wise how they collaborate how they cooperate what they bring to the game but it's more about the person has green skin or the person's this or person's that and they don't hire on merit per se. And it's now you're seeing the pendulum back which swinging in the other way where this whole die or dei is it's just like it's it's getting dismantled because it's gone too far on one side how does an organization find the right balance so the person they put in place doesn't just look like a token you know what i'm saying by that right because that is then there's you get all the criticism about that oh he or she or it or whatever is just a token i can understand having diverse opinions and experience as you spoke of sort of generation wise this is a hard question maybe to answer and a very politically sensitive one but we've seen the backlash in the anglo-saxon countries how can other countries learn not to let the pendulum swing so far one side. I mean, as you said, it's not a, you know, one plus one equals two type of question. It's a very complex question. And what I feel is that it's looking at it from a much more holistic perspective, that there are genuinely capable people out there. And this is what I'm seeing, just speaking to so many young people who are sort of stepping out of their, you know, stepping into senior roles. And then there are top professionals, very, very highly paid professionals who want to step out of their roles because they're lost their way. And they're only defined by their job and they do not know who they are. So in 30 years, they've been in accounts or finance or real estate or so on. So apart from their job, they did not understand who they really are, the person who we've been deep inside. So I think this is also this aligns with the value that the organization is. Like if you're looking at a company like a tech company. So who would be a nice representative of that organization despite color and so on and so forth? And we see examples with the billion-dollar corporations like Microsoft. We get Satya Nadella and Adobe and so on. So they are bringing in people who are not necessarily the right color or whatnot, but they're bringing in people who are genuinely... Who are genuinely into the tech and in a funny way, a bit stereotypical as well, right? I mean, who would rather be the best guy to run a tech company than an Indian, right? So, so there are elements that I feel that instead of, you know, letting the pendulum, like, you know, instead of having, I mean, I have nothing against people who like to dress the way they like to, But instead of having a purple haired, you know, a person, a cross-dressing person, being the head of human resource management, just to symbolize we are an inclusive organization, you could definitely have someone who embodies inclusion, right? Who definitely is fearless enough to stand up and be a champion of inclusion. And when you say inclusion, even straight people, heterosexual, who accepts, and to bring people who genuinely have value. Who genuinely represent what that organization stands for, what that specific department stands for. And today, because of technology, We can bring amazing people like this and position them in these places, in these positions, because we have the tech to support them for what you genuinely need. People who have burning desires for these. So once you identify that, I think then the whole requirement for having this person with this hair color or this skin color or so on, it becomes irrelevant because they become a true champion of that specific role. I think that's a good word. It becomes irrelevant. You know, if you're hiring someone who has the passion, who has the merit, who has the knowledge, the skills, the competency, the character and the personality for that role, I think that is what we're seeing. But a lot of the times people are hiring because of the book cover and not the content of that book. And then the question is, what happens to the credibility of that department by just having, you know, sort of a showcase, a token in place, right? And I think it comes right back down to what you're saying, Nick. For it to be genuinely and sincerely accepted by the greater audience, whatever that greater audience is, it has to come from a place of value driven by those. And of course, all the other sort of adjectives that I've used. Otherwise, if it's not, if there's a misalignment, the whole idea just gets derailed. The thing is just, okay, this is what's the focus of society right now. It's the flavor of the month. So let's stick someone in that position, right? They see that the higher for a particular position... Wasn't based on all the sort of shallow things, those irrelevant things that you've spoken to, but more of the deeper sense. So that that is a true hire and not just a figurehead or a token. No, that's exactly because that's what we're seeing with so many top professionals who are not satisfied. Some of them actually got fired from very senior roles. Some of them just quit. Some of them are on signaling. which is you know they got sick leave and such yes, for a year or two because they have lost their full the fire in them to continue because they've been in the same role for 30 plus years but once you identify a person's passion and position them based on their passion and either directly working with that or working with something related to that and then you would see. Retention rates go up. If you see a person who's really passionate about something working in that position, that not just creates a happy employee that, that culture will be a very nurturing culture for employees. And what we were talking about is because specifically if you're looking at a country like Norway, which is a very large country, a very small population, a lot of loneliness in this country. And so one of the big places that people socialize is their workplace. If that workplace is toxic, so that's one of the only places that you want to socialize. And it is toxic, and then you have no other people to socialize because it's just the nature of Norwegians. That's where things like alcoholism and other depression and suicide and things like that comes into play. So why not transform these working places into actually nurturing social environments? And that's the reason behind the event that we had on the 27th of May from burnout to breakthrough is how to create more socially acceptable and nurturing environments for employees so that they don't see coming to work as a burden. And coming into a toxic environment or coming into a mundane, lifeless, nine-to-five environment that has no pulse. And instead, you see it as somewhere, a place that's nurturing, somewhere they get to at least have one conversation a day with someone of value who gives them an aha moment. In the first half of my conversation with Nick, we explored three major themes shaping today's workplaces. Adapting to technological change, navigating generational diversity, and finding the right balance and inclusive hiring. Now Nick emphasized that while technology is an incredible tool, its true value depends on how creatively people are trained to use it. He pointed to examples like AI transcription and medical settings and how early adopters often find ways to streamline workflows. And at the same time, many organizations struggle with slow adaptation because they lack proper training. Well, and they fail to make learning engaging through approaches like gamification. Now, this point is critical because it highlights a common gap. Companies spend heavily on new tools, but often neglect the human side of adoption, leaving employees frustrated instead of empowered. We also discussed the role of generational diversity and the cultural clashes it can create. And the age differences between boomers, Gen X, millennials, and Zoomers, well, they're often overlooked. Nick argued that technology itself, well, it can be a bridge here, creating new digital spaces where different generations can learn from each other. And this is significant because those divides don't just affect workplace culture. Well, they directly shape collaboration, innovation, and retention. And finally, we turn to inclusive hiring and how organizations can balance diversity with merit. Nick shared an example from Norway's corporate sector where empowering younger generations and experimenting with role reversals, well, how it has led to more genuine inclusion. And at the same time, he cautioned against the risk of diversity efforts becoming too focused on demographics. specifics at the expense of skills and values. The key he stressed is ensuring that roles are filled by people who genuinely embody an organization's values and passion. And this point matters because it's not just about filling quotas. It's about building cultures of trust and credibility. So now let's slip back into the stream with part two of my conversation with Nick Sharif.. I'd like to segue to that May event from Burnout to Breakthrough. You had invited me to speak, but unfortunately I couldn't because of other engagements or commitments I had. But thank you for that invite, by the way. What were some of the most salient points in order to create work environments where we move from burnout to breakthrough? What were some of the comments that really sat with you from the participants? Um that there were so many so much information that came out uh from from from that from that event and and we we had so many directions that we wanted to go but we were limited by the time that we had for the event and then by the way we are repeating it in november so uh if you're most definitely welcome any audience members as well i'll be sharing the links later on So what we actually saw was that one of the key things that we were discussing there is exactly what I basically mentioned, you know, just a while ago, is that mundane nature of work where everyone is being compartmentalized. You may be in a very open environment and open office spaces and so on and so forth, but you're very compartmentalized. There is a corporate hierarchical system and there's an unspoken rule of how you should behave in that environment and what conversations that you should have. And it is not it is kind of in a way a kind of censorship so as to speak so there is um. There is unspoken censorship in the working environment. So it's in a way a very suppressive environment. And so this is what I think specifically people in countries like Norway. In 2025 there's still this saying, keep one hand on your head and one hand on your mouth so that you don't get beaten by your boss or your co-worker and you don't say what you're not supposed to say. So that is still an ongoing thing, so to say. Even in a country like Norway, where you're supposed to have freedom of speech and supposed to have very enlightening working environments. So you're still supposed to... So we're seeing this, coming back to this generational gap we're talking about, So we are seeing the Gen Xs and the baby boomers still pushing for that type of an environment, whereas the Gen Zs and the millennials, they are pushing more towards, they're the other extreme of the pendula, where they're over-expressive and over-emotional and, you know, very, how can I say it? In a way, from the eyes of the gen, sort of the baby boomers, unprofessional. So this is what we are seeing as a growing, and to a point that because Gen Z and millennials understand tech so well, you know, coming back to tech, they almost look at the older generation from a condescending point of view, like, you know, you old dinosaurs. So this is... One of the biggest things that we were talking about when it came to the current challenges that has been faced. And so what we were looking at, the event was looking more at creating a safe soul, a quiet space or place of reflection that any member, it could be the CEO to the guy just cleaning the toilets. Anyone who could come and have a moment of peace, a meditative moment, whatever. Of course, no smartphones allowed. A quiet room that could come and help them neutralize and be undisturbed. Of course, not throughout the whole day, but at least 30, 40 minutes, maybe an hour or so, being to themselves and reflecting and so on and so forth. Because we found that, and of course there's a lot of scientific research done, silence and self-reflection and breathwork and stretching like yoga or so on. Even meditation, if you're taking it one step further, it really helps you reconnect all those brain wiring and it's called neuroplasticity and sort of help you refocus your energy and so on. Because most people, what they were talking about, how working environments today drain so much energy. So this is a place of where you can recharge yourself. So this was more or less what that specific event was focusing about and how many people who have been in top corporate jobs who have burned out and how they have managed to get their lives back together by creating these spaces for themselves. And the whole idea behind the event, one of the ideas behind the event It was to see how the possibilities of other organizations being able to have this type of spaces so that if you see your CEO sitting in a quiet room and meditating, then you will obviously not feel bad yourself coming there and doing the same thing. So to create that level of inclusion, but completely a neutral way of inclusion that doesn't judge on your position or your designation or your seniority or so on. And it sounds like part of that has to instill that into the culture. It has to be led from the top down because if employees see that the leaders do it, then it's acceptable because you could speak a good game, but if people don't see it in action, they will stick to what they know. And that is just to grind on all the time. So one of the major salient points I hear you pulled from this May event was there was an agreement that there should be a space, a focus room, a quiet room where people can enter it. Reflect, and kind of collect themselves, be more present. Because in an open environment, there is a lot of noise. There is a lot going on. And that does tend to drain any human being. And when I'm in and out of organizations sometimes when I'm working as a sparring partner we go for a walk and talk instead of sitting in a focus room or meeting room we'll have a walk and talk what that happens is if someone can open up physiologically that has a direct influence on psych psychologically so sometimes if we're just sitting they they can get stuck in a certain mindset but once we start physiologically moving but that opens them up and then psychologically they're thinking about new novel ideas, new insights they can have. You don't always have to do that. But I think that's another way where people going out for cigarette breaks every hour. Well, I think it should also be acceptable just to go outside, get some fresh air for five, 10 minutes, you know, to recollect in itself. So I think there are many different ways. And I think the core of what I hear is that sometimes we need to take moments, shorter or longer, just to reconnect and recalibrate so we can go back in to recharge, as you said. And talking about cigarette breaks, it's interesting because I was working for a recycling plant. And only for the people who smoke, they get a 15-minute break. Or not 15 minutes. I mean, I think it would take five minutes to smoke a cigarette, right? Not too sure, but probably. Yeah. They get a five-minute break every hour for smokers. Which I felt was a bit unfair. Like, I'm not a smoker, but I wouldn't mind that five-minute break myself. Right and and and and so but that was something just popped up because i was back in 2015 or something working in a recycling plant uh out of paso and and and so but but that that very much makes because if you look at there's a lot of new research done into nicotine i don't want to go into that right now uh but if you look at smokers they that is a way of venting out their frustration uh it's it's part of uh you know that's the whole reason people take up smoking one of the sorry not the whole reason but one of the reasons and so it's the same thing if if you can put all that five minutes of each each hour that's you know 40 minutes and and say okay you get a 40 minute break uh to go meditate or or do some yoga or just reflect or or just you know be in a quiet platform playing 432 hertz uh to calm your mind uh something of that sort uh and and then and and coming back to the point that you mentioned and this is something we were very crucial about that it should be led by leadership right so so that people do not feel like they are taking time out of, you know, that they're being, you know, in subordinate. So the leadership to start this trend, because two things. Number one, of course, people don't feel like in subordination doing this. And number two is that that generation is a generation that really needs to, you know, learn a lot about mindfulness and more holistic approach to work. Because if you look at the baby boomer generation, they were the luckiest generation because they were at a time where only one person needed to work and take care of. The salary was more than enough to have a full house of children and luxury travel and so on and so forth. And from that time onwards the economy has been such that it's been more and more challenging and even two people working today is not enough and the Gen Z, they literally don't even see themselves having families and so on and so forth. So Gen Z. The baby boomers come from a different, completely different timeline, a different economy, different way of working. And this has become a crisis in countries like India because the Indian children, like myself, we not just respect our parents, but we do exactly what our parents tell us to do. And our parents tell us to do exactly what they did, which worked perfectly in their time. Right. Go to school, get an education, get a degree, get a loan, get married, buy a house. Retire and that model doesn't work in 2025. We are living in a different timeline so all these, children who listen to their parents and who have done exactly what they said they have catastrophically failed and so it's become a crisis, especially in a country like India which has the highest population so it's very important coming back to our leadership to talk to to get them to you know at least uh start by get them to be the model to go in there have a moment of silence and and and so get influence the other people down the leadership chain as well as well as for themselves as well uh to to get them understand this new sort of holistic working environment and the importance of that we were talking about you said creating these sort of quiet zones where people can be contemplative, reflect, recharged, creating a safe zone where people can share ideas and an inclusive area where we can have sort of divergent thinking. Were there other tips or tools that people suggested that could add to this environment? Well, I mean, there's, you know, quite a few tools that we discussed, you know, everything from sound healing, you know, to Reiki and, you know, how to position things so the energy flows and so on. So and today there's a lot of scientific research done behind it. So one of the important tools talking about this was explaining the scientific research done behind this, because there's a majority of people still can look at this as woo-woo, right? Yeah why is just watching my breath going to make a change in my in in my performance or in my day to day activity why why doing what you know for some people even why not eating a certain type of food is going to boost my productivity right so so there is uh there is for people who have not gone deep into these areas for them it's meaningless right like because hey i my father they eat this type of food my mom eats, my brother eats, so I eat the same type of food and I have the same type of, you know, mindset and so on. And then until it becomes a situation where I just met a gentleman who was diagnosed with diabetes at 38, and that was when he really started looking into his life because he was shocked at 38 that he was diagnosed with diabetes. And this is not even a, you know, Sri Lankan or someone from my culture which has a high rate of diving because it's a white British guy, right? So most people, only when they hit a wall, only when they come to a point of no return, they tend to think of these things, which is usually too late. Usually you already burn bridges with your subordinates or your bosses or your managers because you flipped at them or something, or you already took all the toxicity from work to home and destroyed your relationship with your kids in your family and so on. So here it's about, number one, because majority of our productive time, time that we are awake, we are at work, right? And an employee is a valuable asset, not just to the organization, but to an economy because they produce and that's what keeps the economy going. So these people who are spending their most crucial time doing the most crucial thing, not just for the company, but also for the economy. And then in a toxic environment, right, so switch that around and make that environment nurturing, make that environment reflective, empathetic, right? And this is what we saw, what we were discussing is that how to, you know, so there are so many different ways of creating this. And also based, and coming back to the point that I was mentioning, is to explain the value of these specific actions. Like we see a lot of workshops on leadership management and, you know, all this kind of stuff, which is very left brain, which is very sort of forced into that A-fold structure, right? And and so it's already been done but but now we're about why is it important to have a more holistic approach to work why is it important to have a moment away from screens for example right the simulation stimulation that the air in order the screen creates only why do you need to close your eyes go to a place that even the lighting should not be uh lead lighting it It should be incandescent lighting or just looking at green, just looking at the tree outside, just looking at why is that important and what's the science behind it? Because today everything is researched. I think it's very interesting what you're saying because it really chimes with me. It really resonates with me because I go into a number of organizations and people are, you know, they get stressed. They feel tension. They feel pressure. There's the anxiety. There's depressive thoughts, rumination and such. And they think, this is me. But when you teach them, like, I'll break it down the brain for my neuroscience or whatever, my clinical background, my cognitive science background, and I show them, these are the elements in the brain. Now, again, I don't lose them in the science, but I think the science is important to give them some underpinnings to understand. Again, when we go through a workshop, right, only a couple hours, but all of a sudden they think, you know what? It is my brain. It's my brain doing this. It's not me, my mind, my consciousness. It's my brain. And one of the things that I constantly say, I say, you know, the heart pumps blood, the lung pumps oxygen, your brain is pumping survival. And so when you go into a negativity bias, you go into an overthinking or rumination cycle. That's your wetware doing it. That's what it's supposed to do. It turns, as I say ad nauseum on this show, it turns paper tigers into tigers. What I mean by that, it takes perceived threats and changes into real threats. But once you teach people the underpinnings, the science or the neuroscience behind it, all of a sudden there's this distance. They can disassociate from their brain per se and say, no, that's just a pattern firing in my brain. And i don't have to listen to the narrative i don't have to be a character in the narrative of my brain i can step back through self-awareness and be the author of that narrative and i can change that narrative and all of a sudden even though they can't change the situation nick they change their their perception of that thing and and and and and if you look at the egyptian culture so in modern day we say we have five senses um the mind is also looked, upon as a sense just like our eyes and our nose and our touch and our taste so the mind is also a sense so the mind so so like let's say for example the dog which goes crazy when it senses something and completely takes over all its uh actions because it goes chasing behind that specific extent so that's what's happened to people because our mind comes up you know creates all these different thoughts and so on and so forth and and then we completely surrender to all the to that to these thoughts right and most of the time because there is a lovely quote that I saw once. Whatever that's happening is real. But how we react to it, let's say we decide to react with fear or anxiety, that is a choice. Right? So the danger, let's say a car coming at you, is real if you're standing. But us freaking out and freezing is, or freaking out fearing that that's a choice you make right so so once you realize that uh that there is there is this difference between what how you react to it how you feel about it and what's actually happening it could be something that you say that i do not necessarily resonate with you could have not meant it but if i personally get triggered or or insulted by it, that is a choice I make. That's a choice I'm allowing my assistant to make, right? So I feel like this type of conversations in the working environment is what should be nurtured. And I have thought, because I work in business development for my own startups, and the companies that I'm working with, and I find it very exciting now whenever I go for a meeting, it's no longer about why my product is good and why you have to buy my product but it's these amazing conversations. When I walk out of the meeting I've almost forgotten to talk about what I'm selling and they're like, by the way, what can I buy from you? So I think the whole holistic approach not just to the working environment but to your potential client or customer or whoever you're interacting with that's bringing you in. Once employees are trained on approaching them with this empathetic approach, like empathy-first approach, it transforms your whole business because your businesses, because those who are employed by the organizations are looked as the brand ambassadors for the organization. It could be selling furniture or cookies or whatnot, smartphones or clothes, but once you have this empathetic approach ingrained into your corporate culture, so it not just creates amazing corporate cultures, it also creates amazing businesses. Well said. Well, Nick, we're coming close to the top of our conversation. Are there any last ideas you'd like to leave with our listeners today? Well, something that we are working on right now, which is basically very much tied to everything that we were speaking right now, but using tech. So monitoring people's activities, their heart rates, their blood pressure. Their blink rates, their voices when they're running meetings or sales pitches or communications and so on, using all the tools that we already have at our disposal, like smartwatches and phones and what they're watching or what they're doing on their screens and so on. And of course, with all this with consent and with the highest level of privacy, just to track the person's life for one month or next period that they prefer to monitor all this and gather all this data and then give them real time coaching on, OK, now your heart rate is high and now you have not eaten for whatever, five hours. And now you're at this location and, you know, what not, right? And now your brain readings are going down or they're giving an unusual pattern. So it's time for you to just go grab a coffee or grab a tea or something. So a live coach will follow you through using your smartphone because everyone has one. So that's something we're working on to help professionals perform better and embrace this holistic lifestyle using the tools they already have with them. If someone wanted to reach out to you to learn more about what you do and creating more of this holistic sort of environment to work, what's the best way they can reach you, Nick? I would suggest LinkedIn so I'm very active there so they could look for me. My first name is Nakhil N-A-Q-E-E-L and Sheriff like the song I shot the Sheriff and so find me there I'm from Oslo and then also we could also reach to our website which is disrupt.no, I'll be sure to leave both your LinkedIn link and the Disrupt.no link in the show notes Nick I just want to thank you for a very enlightening, conversation thank you so much for the opportunity Jason it's such a pleasure. Music. Well, folks, as we close out this episode, I found today's conversation with Nick both philosophical and practical. And the key takeaway from the conversation is that technology alone doesn't transform workplaces. Empathy does. You know, tools and technology, they can streamline processes. But without environments that nurture human connection, creativity and trust, well, we all know they fall short of their potential. And that matters because when leaders combine empathy with technology through reflective spaces, cross-generational dialogue, and inclusive hiring that is based on merit, skill, knowledge, and experience, well, workplaces just don't become more efficient. They become more human. And that's what sustains people over the long term. So as you reflect on your own team, ask yourself this. Where could empathy be the missing ingredient? Maybe it's in how you introduce a new tool, how you bridge age gaps, or how you support someone who feels isolated. Nick, a big thank you to you for sharing all your time and your perspective, your knowledge and your experience so generously. Your insights remind us that while technology changes quickly, maybe too quickly, our need to connection and understanding remains constant. As the machines get better at being machines, we humans have to be better at being human. So if today's conversation sparked ideas, share it with a colleague who could benefit. And don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss future episodes where we keep exploring resilience, leadership, and well-being. For those who wish, you can follow me on LinkedIn where I also have an It's an Inside Job podcast newsletter that I launch most Wednesdays, almost every Wednesday, where we take the most salient points and pragmatic tools and insights from that week's episodes and distill it down into something that you can use to lead yourself or to lead others. So thanks again for joining me for another great conversation. And until next time, keep well, keep strong, and we'll speak soon. Music.

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